Rethinking Manhood
Rethinking Manhood is all about bringing men together to unlearn patriarchal masculinity, and intentionally making space for men to heal, grow, and learn in community. If you're looking for a way to support Rethinking Manhood check out my Buy Me a Coffee page! (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/destyn) Your support (in every way) means a lot to me!
Rethinking Manhood
S3, E8: Reshaping Masculinity with Dr. Jason Larocque (@coachlarocque)
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What happens when a 45-year-old man experiences catcalling for the first time? For Dr. Jason Larocque, that uncomfortable moment on St. Patrick's Day provided a striking glimpse into what many women experience routinely – feeling unsafe, self-conscious, and vulnerable in public spaces. This revelation is just one of the powerful insights shared in our conversation about masculinity, emotional awareness, and creating spaces where boys can truly thrive.
Jason Larocque, an all-boys educator with nearly 20 years of experience, shares insights on masculinity, gender equity, and creating spaces where boys can develop authentic identities beyond harmful cultural messaging. His personal "fish out of water" moment experiencing catcalling gave him newfound understanding of what women regularly face, while his doctoral research revealed how men's healing journeys impact their ability to guide boys effectively.
In today's episode we discuss the following:
- Creating school environments where boys can express vulnerability, discuss emotions, and develop authentic identities
- The importance of being "co-conspirators" with boys rather than lecturing them
- How patriarchy creates a pattern of privilege paired with emotional neglect for boys
- The transformative power of therapy and building emotional vocabulary
- The impact of men modeling vulnerability and emotional awareness
- Building deeper male relationships through shared experiences and vulnerability
- Helping boys develop multi-faceted identities beyond sports or single achievements
- Countering the "manosphere" messaging that emphasizes strength and domination over connection and community
For more information on Jason's work and speaking engagements on healthy masculinity, team building, culture, and gender equity, visit https://www.coachlarocque.com/
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I get up and I get down. I must struggle till the day is done. I just want to be myself. I just want to be myself today. Wanna know just who I am. Who I am has really just begun.
Speaker 2:All right, welcome back everyone to another episode of Rethinking Manhood. I have a super dope guest with me named Jason. Today, and before Jason introduces themselves, I was thinking earlier this week about the role that systems of oppression play. I was thinking earlier this week about the role that systems of oppression play and that when you benefit from a system of oppression, aware that there's disparities that exist based on you know, you having this identity, and you don't know until usually something happens, or you become radically aware, like I think of when my father had a stroke, when I was maybe I don't know 12 or 13, somewhere around there. I never realized how ableist of a world we lived in until I had a father who could not walk as well as he used to. Right now, I'm realizing wow, there's not places that are handicap accessible. Or I'm realizing the different barriers that exist amongst parking and all sorts of things.
Speaker 2:I think the same often exists for patriarchy, where, for many men, we do not notice this system of oppression that exists because we don't have to. It benefits us. We've always had the right to vote, we've always had opportunities, we've always been paid at higher salaries and other sorts of privileges that my mind is blanking on, mind is blanking on, and then something happens where we become aware. For me, I became aware, shoot, when did I become aware? Honestly, I think it was college, and I was really involved in this space in college called the Pan-African Student Union, and there were just tons of unapologetic Black women who were not afraid to check men but who also just weren't afraid to openly talk about patriarchy and misogynoir and how that shows up in their life, and I think that was a moment for me where I was like, wait a minute, maybe I've been taught to think about some things wrong. So, jason, for you I'm curious. First introduce yourself. What do you do, favorite thing to eat for breakfast and what was your fish out of water moment?
Speaker 3:Sure, well, thanks for having me. My name is Jason LaRock. I am a all boys educator. I teach, coach, administer and lead at an all boys school up in Massachusetts and I've been in the all boys education space for close to 20 years. Um, and I am a PhD, a researcher. Um and um spend a lot of time thinking about masculinity and gender equity.
Speaker 3:Um, what I think my favorite breakfast food is anything with hot sauce. I think my favorite breakfast food is anything with hot sauce, so typically eggs, burritos, kind of anything with hot sauce. Any hot sauce will work. Um, but yeah, I had a. I had a really great breakfast burrito this morning which I'm still thinking about. Um, yeah, I think my fish out of water.
Speaker 3:I have two that come to mind. One is more real life and one is more academic. I think the real life one was about two St Patrick's Days ago. I had taken my young children out for dinner and we were walking along a downtown street on St Patrick's Day around 5 pm and it was bright out and getting out of the car, taking my kids to the restaurant and all of a sudden, about three or four drunk women coming out of a bar, an Irish pub across the street, started catcalling me in front of my children and kind of offering some sexualized commentary, and in my 45 years of living that was the first time that that had ever happened to me. Um, and I was like super self-conscious. I felt a little unsafe, um, I had to explain to my kids what was happening. They were quite confused and it took 45 years for me to experience something like that. And that was just a reminder to me of, like, what women experience frequently, you know, and how when they're out socially and it's very difficult to be alone, you know, there's a lot of sexist comments and behaviors that happen, that they encounter quite frequently. So that was a kind of a real life moment.
Speaker 3:And then I think for me, an academic moment was part of my doctoral work. I had to write a qualifying paper called sociocultural perspective and I had to pick an aspect of my identity and reflect on it in like a 40 page paper. It was really hard for me to think about what aspect of my identity I really wanted to dive into. Um, because a lot of my identities are are typically thought of as, like the privileged identities, um. So I was like, well, what am I going to write about Um and then I, I, I, I really drilled down on masculinity and when I started to do that, it just opened up a whole world of reflection to me that allowed me the opportunity to really dive into some of the forces that had shaped my life for 40 years and I never even really dedicated the time or the energy to think about it.
Speaker 3:So that was quite a powerful thing thing and and I I went into my doctoral program thinking I was going to spend that journey thinking about more teaching and learning, specific um research and, and when I started this socio-cultural perspective paper, it was so powerful that I really decided that I wanted to focus more on the identity aspect of education and and decided to write my dissertation more on the experience of masculinity of all boys administrators that are men, and that became kind of the driving question that I've been pursuing for the last five, six years, or going back to that experience where you were catcalled on that St Patrick's Day.
Speaker 2:I'm curious did you initially make the connections right away between, like, what you're experiencing and this is something that women experience all the time?
Speaker 3:Or yeah, like what was kind of that process, like the first, the first thing was just trying to explain it to my kids and like to get them into the restaurant, because it was quite distracting, the kids were really confused and that the kids were taken care of. I think when it really hit me was the next day, when I was like, wow, that was Because then not only did I have to worry about getting into the restaurant, but then I'm like are they lingering, are they sticking around? Am I going to encounter them on the way out? Are they going to follow me, follow me? Um, so it was. It's not too often that a 6'3 white male is vulnerable and physically intimidated like that, and it was clearly a moment of like psychological distress and and just that that feeling isn't something that I have to worry about very often. Um, so that was just that was something that was pretty revelatory for me and really connected the dots, like the next day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for sharing. I also kind of had a similar experience before and felt very similar things, where you stop and you think of the discomfort that, in my case, that I felt for that moment, and then I think, wow, no-transcript, really think twice about it. It's a thing and, yeah, just knowing that anywhere you go, there's kind of this risk that you have of either being harassed by someone or someone saying something, doing something that makes you uncomfortable. I think one of the things that's super intriguing for me is you are in the schools and there's so many conversations right now happening around boys in schools.
Speaker 2:I think about the Netflix series Adolescence and, as a person who is, you know, kind of removed from K through 12 settings, I think about how, when I was working with college students, one of the things I saw is students were coming in a lot more aware of social issues than I was when I first got to college, like a lot of the things that I had learned for the first time and things like gender or race being socially constructed. These students were coming in knowing these things. But then I think about this new culture that's emerging. That's a bit foreign for me, like the incel the red pill masculinity. Still, to this day, I'm not gonna lie, I'm still confused a little bit about what it is. How do you kind of see these dynamics play out? What are some of the beliefs that boys within your school have about masculinity that you've observed?
Speaker 3:Well, I have the benefit of working in a faith-based school, so it's a Catholic institution which I think, at least from a values perspective, and you know you look at some of the values of the Gospels and some of the you know the central tenets of Christianity. I think that supports the work that we do with boys in terms of character building and, you know, developing a sense of morality and ethics. And when you have a requirement of religious studies and theology for their time there, you're basically normalizing reflection and prayer and spirituality. And I also have the benefit of working at a really inclusive Catholic school, so that you know we're aware that there are people from different faith traditions and different kind of readiness for spirituality. So we meet people where they're at in their journey and for our students, it's really just getting them to think beyond themselves and whatever that means for them, I think is kind of where we try to go and whatever that means for them, I think is kind of where we try to go. But servant leadership is something that we're always thinking about is, you know, using your gifts and strengths for others, and I think that when you look at a lot of the manosphere messaging, it's really about this culture of like, success and individuation. Success and individuation there's not a lot of. There's not a lot of talk about community or affinity or dependence and intimacy and connection. It's really all about like separating yourself from the crowd through strength and domination and power, and I think that the gift of my community is that those are all things that we kind of we work against and we talk about how interconnected we all are, and I'm a part of where boys are talking about grief and loss and being confused and needing help, and I think that's one of the gifts of an all boys education and there are some things that you have to look out for in an all boys setting. There are some things that you have to look out for in an all-boys setting. Obviously, sometimes it can get pretty competitive and there could be some alpha male personalities that come out. But I think if you are aware of some of the drawbacks and if you can be intentional about how you handle those moments and you can be thoughtful about all the other webs of supports and messaging that you're sending to boys, then I think it all evens out and I think that the benefits clearly outweigh some of the potential drawbacks. Um, and I'm? I'm a middle school person. I kind of uh, that's that's my sweet spot right now and I work with high school students too, but the middle school, for me, is really formative, and they're they're constantly surveilling their social scenes and they're looking for what's the narrative that makes sense to me and, and based on my emerging sense of self, which narratives make sense to me and which ones don't. And I might need help. I might need help discerning that. Um, and I think that's really what mentors and educators and and men of influence can do for these young, young men is really just help them differentiate between the narratives that are offered and, instead of judging them, it's sitting with them and just processing, processing together, because no boy I know wants to be lectured to. Yeah, you know, I mean the.
Speaker 3:The best phrase I ever read was that boys need us to be co-conspirators. Yes, so you know they. They have all this, this pent-up, uh kind of uh drive to to deal with fairness and equity, and they're looking. They're looking to see who has influence and they're like putting their ranking things and they're putting things in order. And if we're, if we're lecturing them or we're correcting them or telling them all the ways they're wrong. That's not going to work. They need people to be co-conspirators with them, like tell me your story and like let's, let's do this together. Um, and I think that's really where educators and mentors can do the best work is to journey with boys and listen to them and be present to them, but not try to judge them or fix them.
Speaker 2:Hmm, you know it's. It's so interesting because if you were to tell me that I had to go to an all-boys school, I would probably cry in misery. That was probably my biggest fear growing up. I did not thrive in any all-boys settings, never did sports or anything like that. So it's interesting to hear you describe this environment where I'm like, wow, this sounds like a space I would love to be in and it kind of conflicts with anything that I would imagine an all-boys space would be like.
Speaker 2:One of the things that kind of sparked my curiosity is I remember when I was an undergrad I initially was going to school to be a teacher up until I think, like student teaching is when I quit. Like right before I was going to student teach, I dropped my licensure program and it was largely because I took a youth studies class and I realized that I cared a lot more about youth development than I did about pedagogy. Process of learning, all the you know, teaching to a curriculum, like those things didn't excite me as much as the youth development conversation did, and that was never a part of my program. There was nothing about how young people develop, there was nothing about adolescence, and I guess I'm curious. I think that teaching is a teaching and working in schools are a way to do youth development work. But how have you seen people balance this idea of helping young people become who they already are versus trying to mold them into mini versions, usually of ourselves or kind of what we think they should be?
Speaker 3:Well, I think there's a couple of things there. One is, you know, know, you started off by talking a little bit about that. What I've been describing is maybe a little bit different than the vision of all boys education that you have been thinking of. And then the second part of your question was more about, like, you know, how do we, how do we create spaces where boys can authentically become themselves?
Speaker 3:And I think that, um, I come back to the, the culture of the institution, and you know, culture either permits authenticity or diminishes authenticity, and I think that where I work in this community, I'm a part of as a really strong culture, um, that is really based around formation and accompanying and journeying people, versus trying to get to a destination where we all have to, you know, look the same at the end. And I think that, you know, I taught a class on relational dynamics in the theology department, um, this past year, and one of the one of the things we used was um a Jesuit named James Martin Um. He has a book where he talks about the true self and the? Um the false self, and I think really, with boys and men, that's that's the constant battle is like what, what does society want from me versus what do I want for myself. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think that you know, depending on the culture of the school, public schools is probably less space and time for figuring out that tension because of the mandated curriculum and the benchmark assessments that need to be done. And you know, obviously character development cannot be done through a kind of a spiritual lens in a public setting. But I think that in a faith based school, in private schools, there's less mandated curriculum and there tends to be less standardized testing and a little more academic freedom. And I think, especially at a Catholic school like ours, really that formation is just as important as the academic formation. So we have a lot of freedom and we're encouraged to really help our boys, courage to really to really help our boys.
Speaker 3:We, we talk about our boys being called to be authentic and, and you know, figuring out who they are called to be, and then us really supporting that journey through our co-curricular program, our academic program, essentially creating all these experiences where they learn more about themselves and and then, through that process of self-discovery, they then learn what they can contribute to the world and I think really, at the end of the day, that's what spirituality is. It's like learning more about yourself so you can be good for others. And I think, what boy? We talk about the purpose vacuum with boys right now, but like what boy doesn't want to be good at something?
Speaker 3:and then and then, and then be in a position to help others with that, like I think. I think boys want they're they're kind of coded to to use their strengths not one strength, not the typical strength we think of but use their gift, use their gifts for others.
Speaker 3:I think there's a deep coded kind of um, you know, uh, all of humanity's history I think there's a coded kind of yearning to use your talents for others, and I think really, at the end of the day, that's what I think education is, and what a blessing to do it in a setting for all boys, and what a blessing to do it in a place where they, we, can explore that spiritual element as well well, there's two kind of follow-ups that come to my mind.
Speaker 2:One I'm curious about you know, when you had that experience a few years ago, plus after, uh, finishing your phd program, which is kind of like opening your eyes to a lot of things around masculinity, patriarchy how did that shift your approach to work? And then, another thing I'm curious about is this community that you've that you formed within the school. What does it kind of look like when boys step outside of this community? Do you ever hear them realize, in other spaces where they may interact with other boys, like wow, it's a little different. Or like they are, you know, where it's not as easy to be vulnerable? What's kind of that been like?
Speaker 3:I think that you know we're only with our students eight hours out of a 24 hour day and we're only with them nine months out of 12. And we're facing a lot of countercultural messages that you know. I think we used to be operating from a position of strength before the, you know, the digital social media age and maybe some of the decline of some of the more civic and neighborhood based kind of groups and associations. I think you know, I think COVID did a lot of damage to a lot of the kind of the neighborhood and some of the communities that people typically were a part of. And I think, with the rise of social media and you know people working more and you know the people are working more to pay their bills and therefore have less time for kind of neighborhood and civic engagement, community engagement, I think, with all of these different dynamics, I think boys are coming in with a lot less experience being a part of a community and being a part of being a part of like a common purpose, being a part of being a part of like a common purpose, yeah, so so I think a lot of what we have to do in school is that we can't assume and I think this is true for a lot of schools and educational institutions, not just ours is we can't assume that boys know what it means to be a part of a community. We can't assume that boys know the behaviors that are pro-social. We can't assume that boys know what it means to be a part of an academic community. So we're finding that we have to do a lot more foundational skill and value building and that we have to oftentimes do a lot of corrective behavior, where they're coming in with certain ideas about what it means to be a boy or what it means to be successful, or you know what are the kinds of things that I used to do, um, in terms of my relationships that maybe in a place like ours it just doesn't fly, um. So I think I think we're doing a lot more work for the same result because of what's happening outside of our campus and what the boys are experiencing.
Speaker 3:But that's on all of us right. It's not just on us as a school, it's on the families that are coming to our school. They have to do some of this work. We have to partner with them. I think it's a lot of the churches, it's a lot of the teams that the boys are playing on. Like we all have to, we all have to come together and serve these boys. It can't just be the schools, it can't just be the parents, um, you know, we all have to kind of meet the needs of these boys because, you know, based on all the public health data and all the things, like this is the moment, know, this is the moment, and, and it's either going to get better or it's going to get worse, but it's going to take all of us, um, so that's how I would answer that.
Speaker 3:And then, in terms of you know, my own experiences with my doctoral work, I think being becoming a parent, I think could really help me with some of this is that, in order for me to help boys the best I can, I have to make sure that I've done my own work away from work, and that that involves healing, that involves transformation.
Speaker 3:It involves, like you know, a lot, of, a lot of processing of like previous suffering that I have to like figure out, so that when I show up to my community, when I show of like previous suffering that I have to like figure out, so that when I show up to my community, when I show up to the boys that I'm leading. I've done all the things for myself so that when I'm, when I'm present for them, I can listen to them. I'm not projecting any bias on them, I'm not. I'm not judging them. I'm not demanding things from them that they can't give me. So I have found that. You know that's part of my doctoral work is that I found that the men, who are the best leaders of boys, they're in a constant process of reflection and healing so that they're able to show up for their boys and like, really help them transform and grow. But we can't, as men, we can't just show up, however we have been raised and just expect to work miracles. It just doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah Well, and I meet a lot of men just in my personal life who have an awareness that they know that there's some work or some healing that they need to do, but I often think that there's not a lot of direct guidance of what that looks like, knowing that it, of course, can look different for everyone, based on our experiences and what we have access to, but for you, with as much or as little as you're comfortable sharing, you know what does healing, what does that constant journey of healing look like for you?
Speaker 3:I think it is having people around who can call you out, based out of love and just you know, name behaviors or challenge things that they're seeing, that I'm doing in a loving way and saying like that's not who you are or why are you doing that?
Speaker 3:Or you know me even telling these people that are in my circle these are the things that when I'm not going well, or the things that I'm working on, these are what that looks like. So if you see me going down this road, please call me in and let's talk about it. So for me, healing is really just creating spaces of honesty and vulnerability and asking for help and cultivating a network of people friends, family, co-workers that I kind of give them the keys to. You know my heart and my mind and say like I can't do this alone and I need your help. I think it's. You know. The therapy commitment that I've had for 20 years is trying to like create spaces for myself to work out stuff that I'm thinking about and trying to heal from.
Speaker 2:Wait, you've been in therapy for 20 years. Oh wow, that is like incredible. Keep going. I have a follow up on that, but keep going.
Speaker 3:And I think it's like to be honest with you. I think it's the realization that the myth of independence and strength it's like you have to actually name it and then you have to take care to not go down that road. I mean, there's been moments in my life where I either ignored or diminished or escaped independence, the issues I was having. And I think now, when you know, through through wisdom and growth and suffering, I think I'm now at a point where I can be like, oh no, here it comes. These are the six or seven things that I'm going to put in place by the end of the weekend, so that I'm good, you know.
Speaker 3:And and I think it's knowing what the issues are, knowing what your resources are and then putting them in action. I mean, that's really what healing is for me. It's like identify the challenges, know when they're happening and then put resources into place proactively so that you can either control, move past or work alongside these issues. But yeah, ignoring it's not going to help.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I teach a class at the U of M called Leadership, you and your Communities, which is all kind of about community leadership. So we talk a lot about interdependence. We talk about all flourishing being mutual and it always brings me back to I was working in a program for Black men on a college campus and it would always get on my nerves when we would have these group check-ins and everyone's like oh, things are fine, like grades are looking good. I have my one-on-ones with them and I'm doing grade checks and I'm hearing an opposite story. But it would always be interesting where there would be one student they could be roommates taking the same course, one student failing, another student doing well, and I would always sit there and think about interdependence.
Speaker 2:All flourishing is mutual, like when you are really rooted and grounded in community, like there is support, there is no need to struggle or suffer in silence. The students that I teach I'm always like I would kind of be mad if y'all all come to class every week and like two people are failing and y'all don't know, or if two people don't come to class and you all don't say anything, like that would. That's a little wild in terms of how was that living in community Um, when you were talking about therapy for 20 years I was it made me think about my own therapy journey, which is significantly shorter than yours, and I think about all the different times where I was like, where I feel like I've had these many graduations from therapy and I'll take a pause or I'll stop and then maybe I'll start back. What has made you like persist for 20 years?
Speaker 3:I think it's been good people, good therapists, yeah, and I think it's a sense of progress. I think when, from what I've heard, people that in my life that have either tried it and kind of stopped or, you know, dabbled and then left, it is like they just didn't see progress or value. And I think for me, I've constantly felt like I was making improvements. And how I know is that, you know, now, when I am on the you know call with my therapist or I see the therapist in person is like I basically run the meeting, yeah, you know, I'm like, I'm like oh, so these are the things, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm thinking about, and my therapist is like oh, is like oh, that's that's great, you have, you know, some great strategies and you know. And then, and then I don't know that there's there's a shift in the conversation, at least with therapists I've had, where you know, you kind of co-construct the, the call, yes, yes, versus like you know, versus like the therapist, like being the expert and telling you and like walking you through and taking up space. I think really what happens over time is like the two of you co-construct the, the meaning, and and the, the follow-up and like the, the phone call or the zoom call, and like, to me, that's when you really made it is like you're.
Speaker 3:You're not an equal because obviously you don't have the training, but yeah, you're embodying the, the mindset and the, the process of you know, reforming your behavior, I guess, um, and being, being. What is it like? Having a rich vocabulary about emotion? Yeah, I think I think is really important, like when you can name it, describe it it, talk about it, articulate it, um, I think, I think you, that's when you've kind of graduated. So, even though I probably have graduated, I still like the fact that, like, I have that in my world and you know, sometimes I'll reduce the frequency, um, but I, I like having it as a part of my, my network of supports, which to me, is part of that healing. You know why abandon something that is serving you?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, at one point I saw it as like a weekly investment in myself, almost similar to like getting a haircut or just kind of like a weekly thing that I'm doing to care for myself and knowing that there is someone who I can like labor with certain things and I'm not all constantly relying on friends or a partner to process or navigate certain things that might be heavy. So I love that. Earlier you've mentioned fatherhood and surprisingly well, maybe not surprisingly a large amount of people who listen to this podcast are women, a good amount of them being mothers, just from people who reach out and they often talk about the difficulty of, or not the difficulty, but trying to navigate. How do you raise boys to resist the manosphere and kind of some of this harmful rhetoric that they see on social media and that's affirmed in subtle ways through friends groups, sports teams? Um, and for you as a parent, like what does it look like raising children to sort of resist some of the harmful rhetoric?
Speaker 3:it's interesting. I I've worked with a few parent groups for elementary schools about, you know, raising boys and it's the crowd is mostly women, yeah, and the fathers that come you could tell the ones that weren't actually my friends through the communities that I'm in. You could tell that the men were kind of dragged by their wives, Yep. But I think that halfway through my presentation I think the men. But but I think that you know, halfway through my, my presentation, I think the men are bought in because I think they, it resonates with them.
Speaker 3:It's just, it's just like getting there, Right, it's like once you have the men there and you give them the message, you're like, oh yeah, that's right or that's powerful, but it's getting them to invest, to show up, Yep. But I think one of the things that my my, one of my main messages, is that we don't want to neglect the emotional lives of boys. And I think one of the things that you know, Ruth Whitman, who wrote boy mom, which is an amazing book I would recommend it to anybody who cares about boys she talks about this really deep tension of privilege and neglect so boys are often privileged.
Speaker 3:You know early on they're. They're kind of given all these messages that they, you know they're they're going to be successful, that they, you know they're going to be um, you given the keys to the kingdom early on. But then through that process of privilege, they often miss out on a lot of the emotional needs they have and those emotional needs go unmet and neglected. And I think one of the things I really tried to do with my own son is I tried to not diminish his emotions. I try to celebrate them, acknowledge them, you them, give him some vocabulary to name them, tell him I'm proud when he's feeling their emotions, celebrate them, feel them without shame, without guilt, without any trivializing of them.
Speaker 3:A lot of times when boys are emotional, we try to tell them to pick up the pieces and move on quickly. Yep, um, and I just don't think that's life, I don't think that serves anybody. And I also try to. I try to show and model vulnerability as well. I cry in front of my children, I talk about I cry in front of my children, I talk about my struggles in front of my children and I just think all that stuff's really important.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting. When you were talking about kind of neglecting boys, it made me think about how often I think one of the impacts of patriarchy is the one. Often I think one of the impacts of patriarchy is the one this belief that men should be providers and sort of self-sufficient and independent, constantly trying to get to manhood, without even really knowing what I meant by manhood, but kind of this constant trying to prove that I have it on my own and I think that I was raised to go in that way. So I think about, like you know, starting working early. I was always trying to make money, whether it was cutting grass or doing X, y, z, whatever it is, because to be a man is about financial stability, being able to provide for self. And then I think about as I grew older, became a teenager, realizing my parents asked less questions. You know they kind of, if I said I was going somewhere, ok, when you get back they don't ask too much about it. You say when? Good, they don't you know. And then kind of the older I get, the more there is that neglect to kind of I don't know, just check in or know how things are going, because that's essentially what I was taught men do, where it's to be independent, to not have someone worried or concerned about you. It's to be independent, to not have someone worried or concerned about you.
Speaker 2:I ask that because another question that I've been thinking about a lot is how. What are boys' ideas on what becoming a man means and how? That can often be so tied to a traumatic event or experience where, when I was growing up, a lot of boys felt like they became men either after they had sex for the first time or if a friend died or if a parent is no longer in the picture, like they'll talk about. That's when I became a man. For you, I'm curious one. Did you have any ideas around? This is where I became a man. What was that? And then do you kind of see, how do you see young people thinking about what becoming a man looks like?
Speaker 3:I think my own story really is like manhood was represented through sports and I didn't have a language for it. There wasn't a lot of talk about no-transcript in my school setting. Is that boys want to talk about this stuff? They really do, but they want to do it in a space that's safe, yeah, and I think I think they want to do it in a space that is more listening than it is telling.
Speaker 3:Um and I, you know, I I go back to this class that I taught this past year called relational dynamics, and like we just talked a lot about their experiences and we talked a lot about, you know, some of the challenges of trying to be strong and successful and you know they really enjoyed it and I think, like I think they, I think they enjoyed the, the partnership with me, but like we were doing it together and I actually used a lot of the material from your book in the in the class, to be honest with you, and one of the things that we tried, one of the things we did, was we, your, your chapter on softness, we we talked a lot about like what, what does softness look like to you? Because I wanted to kind, I wanted to have them think about some areas of human, human experience that they don't normally think about. Like boys don't think about softness ever, yeah, um, so I had them like reflect on that and they had to, you know, do an assignment for me where, like, they had to either create a video or they had to, like you know, create a piece of art, or they had to share, share an image or a memory that captured softness for them and they loved it. They loved it, like one boy shared that he played, plays the guitar, and like that's where he feels soft, is like expressing himself through music.
Speaker 3:Um, one boy talked about, like moments on the beach with his family, um, but like they don't do that, you know, and I think, like creating spaces for boys to reflect and talk about their issues and validate them and don't, you know, don't impose beliefs on them about their experiences, I think is really rewarding and valuable for them, and I could just see them craving that, you know, and these were juniors, 17, 17 years old, you know, ready to start, you know, almost in college, and like, clearly wanting independence, clearly wanting to separate from, like their, you know, their childhood selves, but like they just still wanted to talk about their identity, their lives, their experiences, meaning, so that was really powerful to do that with them.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it just made me think about how such of a disservice it is to abandon that softness and that gentleness, that gentleness. And I think about how boys don't get to be soft and gentle for too long before they're kind of socialized into aggression or interdependence or independence and so on. And yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking about how much you miss when you don't get to embodying that.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you, one of the one of the most powerful moments I've ever had in my educational career, going on 20 years now, is, uh, I was teaching this class and my wife and I had a a long fertility journey, um, and we had both of our children through IVF. And I was doing this assignment in my class, where it's an interview project. It's a Naomi Way, the professor at NYU who you might know had this thing called the listening project and the whole idea is to get boys to listen and hear stories of other people so you can develop some empathy. So I tied this in with a unit on active listening, so I had the boys interview three adults in the community and learn more about them and through that experience, what did they learn about themselves? So I modeled this by having the boys interview me and the interview starts, and I did this in front of the class and the interview starts. And I did this in front of the class and the interview starts with like a like a profound question to like spark dialogue. And one of the questions was like what's the? The starting question for my interview from the class was what's one thing that was difficult, that you experienced, that you would not change. So.
Speaker 3:So I talked about my fertility journey and one of the boys in the class and this was probably like two months into the class we hadn't a lot of you know, we hadn't a lot of time together and we weren't quite fully trusting yet but one of the boys asked me in front of the whole class do you think you'll tell your kids someday? And that was the first time anyone had ever asked me that. Yeah, and I just, I just started crying uncontrollably because it was like this really powerful question. And the boy you know, one of the things that naobi way talks about is when these boys ask you these questions, you realize how deep they can be. Yes, so, like my whole adult life, no one had even taken the time. No adult, nobody in my own family had ever asked me that question.
Speaker 3:And I'm looking at this 16, 17 year old boy who's innocent and is just genuinely curious. Like you know, dr Laocque, are you going to tell your kids someday? And I just started crying and then he started crying and I'm looking around and the whole class was crying and it was like this, this moment for me, where I'm like I deeply believe in boys like we, we can do this, like we can create spaces and and ways for boys to be authentic, courageous, vulnerable, curious about people you know, empathetic, listening to stories, and it was just like this. This moment I'll never forget where, just like this innocent question, that was just super super curious, super like super human, um, and it just hit a nerve with me that I wasn't anticipating.
Speaker 2:Hmm, oh, that would have tore me up. If I was there, I would have been on the floor.
Speaker 3:It was, it was it was unbelievable. It was like it was like 18 men prying in a room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when you, as you were talking about just asking questions, one of the things that I have noticed in my own life something that I'm trying to practice more because I based on when I was born, I'm kind of bad at it is I was talking with some of my friends and we were talking about how we didn't really have to ask our parents for much because we I was born in 97.
Speaker 2:So I grew up right around the time where technology was kicking off kicking off, but before my parents, who were born in the 50s, knew how to control it, monitor it, I taught them everything that they knew. But because of that, every question that I've had about life, I've always had Google or some sort of source to ask. And then I even think about, like, the role of ChatGPT and the questions that I can ask yeah, a computer, and how that has been missed, I think, moments to connect with just not only my own father, but just elders in my community. And I'm curious, do you ever see like that dynamic show up where, because we have a lot of resources, we have Reddit pages, we have social media, we have Google we don't have to ask people face to face a lot of questions. Yeah, do you ever? Have you ever noticed that, either with yourself, with with young people that you work with?
Speaker 3:I think one of the more more impactful books that I've read recently was David Brooks, how to know, how to know a person, and I think what you're getting at is really just, you know how many people can we honestly say that we know? You know like no, knowing someone because they're nearby or they're they're, they're kind of, uh, formally related to you right through blood or through role, does not mean that you know them. And I guess, I don't know, maybe as a society we've lost the benchmark for knowing a person you know, like, do you know someone if you follow them? Um? Do you know someone if you work for them? Do you know someone if you live with them? Um, so I I guess that's a kind of more an existential question is like what qualifies knowing a person? And and to me it's like I guess knowing a person is like knowing their heart- yeah.
Speaker 3:Um sitting with them. When, when stuff hits the fan and like suffering with people, I think is really when you get to know them.
Speaker 3:Um so, to answer your question, I, I, I think we can do a better job of talking to young people about what it means to to journey with people and to know them. Um, and I'm sure there's a million ways to do that, but I think sparking conversation, cultivating conversation, putting away devices, putting boundaries around devices, like, I think that's all important. Um, finding ways to be out in nature, finding ways to, like go to cultural events, experiencing life, not just consuming it, I think is really important. Um, so I don't have an answer other than I'm curious, but I wonder if, like, we, we've kind of lost the you know, what does it mean to know a person? I mean, I, you know, I hear all these these nostalgic stories about, like Sunday dinners and like family traditions where people went for walks and, you know, I just don't know if that kind of stuff happens anymore.
Speaker 3:Um, so how do we get to know people? I guess is really, um, what I'm curious about, and I think part of that is like, maybe that's what my work is with men and boys. It's like it's just how can I get to know you better than, rather than like, need you for something? Like I want to, I want to know more about. I want to know more about you.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yes, it's um's. When I first wrote my book and I was terribly nervous to give it to my parents because I knew that they didn't know me and I knew that most probably 80 percent of the things they were going to read were things that they did not know- Isn't that crazy that our parents don't even know us?
Speaker 2:isn't that crazy that our parents don't even know us. Yeah, well, in my dad, I think, and maybe even to this day, I think he really struggles with the book, like he really struggles with. He did not know these things and I think it it has been interesting watching him navigate how he's struggling with it and part of it, um, I think his struggle is my dad has always been a if you need anything, like I'm there, type of dad and he has always like filled all of like my physical needs or like it to this day. If something's wrong with my car, my dad is going to handle that for me. Like I'm getting my car detailed, my dad's going to like organize that for me. Like he shows up in a very particular way. But I think what he hasn't learned is how do you show up in a way that is getting to know a person, versus my relationship with my mom. With my mom, I probably talk to my mom daily and we just kind of talk about the everyday. Like if somebody made me mad at work, I might tell my mom. I think she knows me in a different way, largely because of, I think, the way that women tend to build relationships. I think they just kind of have more healthy norms than men do.
Speaker 2:And then I think back to this moment at a church do. And then I think back to this moment at a church. My church has a men's group and I don't usually go. And I don't go because the last time I went I remember they were so frustrated with each other because they were trying to figure out what should they do with this space that they have. What should they do on this Monday night for one hour? And a lot of them were expressing variations of I want this to be a space of connection and not knowing how to do that. Like I remember walking in the church and we're not even sitting in a circle, like we're kind of sitting in the pew, so there's like you can't even see everyone. And then you think about you know same church.
Speaker 2:I've been to all of my life, most of these men have been there even longer than I have and how they have been in a faith community for decades and still do not know each other. And I'm always thinking like how does that happen and how do you cultivate that? Or you know what are the ways that you challenge men to actually learn how to get to know each other, when a lot of the ways that men build relationships are through either sports, politics or, usually, faith communities. So only reason why I think it's been easier for me is that I am a man who knows nothing about sports.
Speaker 2:I become interested in sports when Minnesota teams are doing well, um, and not even like when we're doing really well. Like I'm not at the point where I'm watching the Timberwolves games yet, but I know that like I think we're doing good, so I'll probably become like a diehard fan, you know, if this keeps going on. And because of that, I've never had sports as a platform to build relationships with men, so I've never really been able to rely on it. How have you built relationships with other men in your life?
Speaker 3:Not easily. But one of the things I did about 10 years ago is I started doing CrossFit Um, and it's a community based um exercise kind of uh program. So you take group exercise classes for an hour and I think one of the things that really helped me is that you know, um, these workouts you get you're, you're kind of forced to sweat and go through something really difficult with men. So you know you kind of depend on each other, you develop relationships. So for me that was kind of the start of building a network of and community of men, um. But I think one of the ways that I try to do it is through a shared experience. So whether it's fatherhood, whether it's a former teammates, you know we had that shared experience of being on a team Um, I find it's more difficult to establish relationships with men without that, without a shared experience, cause it almost feels.
Speaker 3:It almost feels like you're being like like dropped into a phone booth together and like there's no way out, um. But I think if there's a shared experience, like fatherhood or like you know, uh, your, your kids are friends with another kid, so then you become friendly with the dad you need almost like a hook or an entry. Yeah, um, it could be church, you know stuff like that. But I think you need that shared experience at least to kind of always come back to if the conversation's not thriving, um, and then I think from there it's just vulnerability. It's just like opening yourself up to different things and I've I've tried to do men's groups and I've had some success over the years and I've I've also invited people to men's groups and I've had some success over the years and I've I've also invited people to men's groups and they just walk away saying like not for me, because they're just not, they're not, they're not interested in that kind of a space, um, but yeah, I think it's like shared experience, um, common purpose, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's. It's uh interesting. In my job right now I do like equity training for a healthcare system, and one of the things that I think about a lot is how, because we have been socialized to build relationships out or based on shared interests, common experiences, affinity in some sort of way. I think that also can sometimes make our relationships um, what's the word I'm looking for? It can make it so we are in relationship with people who are very similar to us, typically state safe, safe relationships. Safe relationships, yep, and I always think about how, or something I'm always talking about is how do we build relationships off of our just shared humanity? Um, because in conversation sometimes, when we can get so focused on looking for the similarity, sometimes we're just not gonna find it. You know, like I think about certain uh conversations I've had in work or at trainings where I'm like there are some people where I'm just never going to find something where we relate to and what does it look like to be in relationship and community with them? So, like, how can differences also be like the hook? You know what I mean, rather than just the similarities? Sure, but I share the sentiment.
Speaker 2:It's hard, I think one of the things that has always been hard for me in building relationships with other men is I think it's just hard for me to feel safe around other men, like just and generally I I naturally have always had more women friends. I think I've naturally always felt like it's easier to be my fullest, authentic self around other women. But I think when I get around men, there's kind of just this feeling of one how much do I need to perform to be a friend with a man? Or kind of just this general like safety. I don't know, I don't know where it comes from.
Speaker 2:Just, yeah, this general like safety, I don't know, I don't know where it comes from. Well, no, I know where it comes from, but something I think I still often have to push myself harder to to work through. Absolutely yeah, I'd be curious to know a little bit more about we're almost at the hour mark, but I'd want to know a little bit more about your dissertation. You talked about it a bit more, but I'd love to just, yeah, tell me more.
Speaker 3:Sure, so it was a qualitative dissertation.
Speaker 3:I selected four men who are middle school principals at all boys' middle schools and people basically in a similar position as I am, and I interviewed them. I had them do video journaling so they responded to some journal questions on a video prompt, um, and then I also, uh, chose one of the men to follow in his work setting for a couple of visits, um, and then, as as like the exemplar, and then, kind of you know, found my findings and basically what I found was that, you know, the men that I selected, the four men, had gone through this cycle and I used Bruce Filer's book about transitions and he has a framework of the long goodbye, the messy middle and the new beginning, and I basically used masculinity through this lens, where the men were saying goodbye to a lot of the things they learned as kids. They were currently in like the messy middle, where they were trying on some new approaches to masculinity, um, some new things around gender equity, and then their hope was that they were, you know, having a new beginning in terms of their, their own masculinity and their leadership, um, and it was just basically like what I learned is that, you know, these men are in a position to help boys because they've done their own work and you know, they've had those experiences around patriarchy and traditional masculine ideology. But it was just really awesome to affirm like the work they were doing, but also like my journey was very similar to theirs.
Speaker 3:You know, addition to the scholarship, because there was not a lot of previously published work around masculinity in all boys schools and especially in terms of the leaders of those schools, um, and I would say, the only, you know, the only thing that I think was well, there's probably other things, but I think one of the things that was a indicator for me is that in in considering their own masculinity, some of the men did a better job of also thinking about the women in their schools. So for some of them, you know, gender equity was a, was a natural byproduct of their masculine work, whereas for some of them, that gender equity piece wasn't as prominent in their own masculine work.
Speaker 2:Um, so it was like for me, it was like the next piece, the next iteration of their work interesting and before I let you go, I was doing some stalking and I found out that you were like a baseball fanatic, like you have been, like you are, you were a um gosh. I just saw this, but I don't know what it means bullpen catcher for the red socks yeah, yeah, yeah, I was looking.
Speaker 2:I was like I don't know what this means, but that sounds important, uh, and it brought me back to when I was in grad school. I did this uh project and research on youth organized sports and specifically, what are boys learning about masculinity from it, and I followed a basketball team for a summer and it was one of the most fascinating things I've witnessed in my life. Maybe it was fascinating to me as a person who never played a sport, but I'm curious for you, like because you're a coach right, you're also a coach. Um, what do you kind of? How do you see boys make sense of masculinity through sports programs?
Speaker 3:good question, I think it. I think it comes down to the culture that's created and I think there's some, some coaches that do a really good job of this and I think there's some coaches that don't, and I think, unfortunately, there's not a lot of like strong coaches, education, so you know, the higher up you get, you know the higher up you get, obviously the coaches are better. But I think you know, at the youth sports level, um, you know, it's kind of a mixed bag. Um, there are some organizations, like positive coaching alliance, that that that do some education in the space and really try to make sports more about character building and emotional tank filling.
Speaker 3:I think, for me, as I've gotten older, I have found sports to be less integral to um. For me, as I've, as my idea of development has matured, I think that sports should not be the only avenue that that young people should experience to help them develop. Let's put it that way I'm more of an advocate now of balance and I think that part of my own challenge growing up as a man was that so much of my identity was rooted in my athletic identity that when that was taken away from me, it was very difficult. Um, and I think that I'm all for competitive sports and the experience of sports, because I had it myself but I think it needs to be supplemented with balance and whether that's spiritual, you know, um, formation through church activity. Whether it's artistic supplements, like you know doing things, um, I love it when athletes are also artists or athletes are also actors.
Speaker 3:I think community service can help. I think, you know, scholar athlete model is really important, so athletes that do a good job in the classroom. I think, if you can, if you can have a multi-pronged, diverse identity, I think it's healthier and I think it helps you so that if you have a disappointment or a setback in one aspect of your identity, there's other parts of you that can help you sustain that challenge. Yeah, and I think really that's what we should be doing for our kids is not forcing them into boxes or, you know, highlighting one path, one journey only. I think we should be doing everything we can to help them see themselves as multi-talented and, you know, having multiple interests. So I think really that's an important part of development.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's funny because I feel like I like observed almost the opposite thing where and maybe it's the culture of basketball, but what I found is that there is so much emphasis on or in order to make it to the you know, there's a lot of talk around like making it to the pros, which fascinated me because I was observing, sometimes like fifth and sixth graders, like fourth, fifth and sixth grade, and it would be fascinating to me.
Speaker 2:I mean, of course I know kids dream big, but like it was more than a dream, Like this was. I mean, decisions are being made on where to go to school that will give people the most opportunities and things like that. And yeah, that just really fascinated me when I learned that they had national rankings for like fifth graders and sixth graders and in some of the conversations it was interesting to hear and listen to how these rankings impacted a lot of these boys' sense of self, their own confidence, the way they would start to see themselves based on where they were ranked. I can think as well, it just kind of seems like it's way too early for this and yet, because of a lot of other factors, I think a lot of boys, at least in the community that I'm positioned in see this as their way out, Like they see this as the most tangible way to ending generational poverty and all sorts of other issues that they may be facing yeah, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 3:I think it's helping boys see different models. So, like travis hunter, the number one um or the number two draft pick in the nfl draft, had a 4.0 at university of colorado. So I think it's like elevating the athletes. For boys who are well-rounded and do have these complex identities um, you know talking about their stories, putting those on a pedestal versus some of the other scandals and other things that are out there, um, cause you can do both. You know it's not, it's not outside the realm of possibility to be a good athlete and a good student, to be a good athlete and a good artist, to be a good athlete and, you know, participate in community service. I think it's achievable. We just have to elevate the right people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, and I even it brings me back to in college settings, at least in D1 settings some of my fraternity brothers were D1 athletes and one of the things that was interesting for the one who plays football was it also kind of felt like coaches did not want him to be well-rounded in certain ways or like he was discouraged from getting involved with campus organizations. Like even being a part of a fraternity was very like taboo in some ways, but there was kind of like a social isolating. That even occurred on college campuses that were that subtly communicated. Stay within this bubble, because in this bubble you are safest and this bubble I can protect you. Do not venture outside of this bubble, right, all right, you are safest and this bubble I can protect you. Do not venture outside of this bubble, right, all right. Well, I'm curious for people who want to connect more with your work and what you do. What are some of the ways that people can get in touch and get connected?
Speaker 3:sure, sure thanks for asking. Um. So I recently launched a website, coach larockcom. I'm sure you'll have maybe the ability to link this uh in the podcast somewhere, um, but it's basically a site that, just you know, talks a little bit about my, my journey, my, my values and the things I do. Um, you know, I, I, the work I do, is really more about the mission than you know the profit. It's um's um. I work with teams, I work with schools, I work with um different organizations around healthy masculinity, team building, culture, gender equity, and I'd be happy to partner with anybody who's interested in kind of doing some work around those issues and elevating boys um, elevating women inside the workplace, um, elevating boys, elevating women inside the workplace. So I'm happy to continue the conversation, be a part of any efforts to move the needle in those areas, and I really appreciate the ability to be on this podcast and kind of share the message that we talked about today.
Speaker 2:No, I appreciate you for sharing your wisdom in the work that you are doing. Also, out of curiosity, are you willing to as people are thinking about booking do you do virtual events? Are you willing to travel or are you kind of just?
Speaker 3:focusing on that. All the above, all the above. I'm open to anything.
Speaker 2:Oh, perfect, that's good to know. Well, thank you again for your time. I hope you all have enjoyed this episode and you will be able to find all of these resources in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Wanna know just who I am. Who I am has really just begun.